Features

Download

Online

Gallery

Blog

  Index  | Recent Threads  | List Attachments  | Help  | Search
 Welcome Guest  |  Register  |  Login
Login Name  Password
 

Sweet Home 3D Forum



No member browsing this thread
Thread Status: Active
Total posts in this thread: 32
Posts: 32   Pages: 4   [ Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 | Next Page ]
[ Jump to Last Post ]
Post new Thread
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 3170 times and has 31 replies Next Thread
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

In easy words: the ground should act like water or fine sand. Not that kind everything sinks into it, but if you put an object into it, the ground should "flow" around the shape of the object.
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 9, 2018 7:00:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
Advanced Member




Joined: May 12, 2013
Post Count: 1555
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

Oh, now I see. True, true, you are right. SH3D cannot calculate and adjust the waterline around a hull at various loads (elevations).

Calculating exact displacement/waterline/draft/freeboard for many different loads and at different water densities (fresh/salt) is a science in itself. Not to mention if you put the hull in motion through water. And you are right, the waterline perimeter is indeed significantly different between loaded and normal/standard displacement, at least for a cargo vessel.

But for a house boat, I think there sort of is an answer to your challenge as different displacements are standardised. And once you know a more or less official displacement you can calculate the 'standard' waterline. Which it seems to me would be the correct cutout to use. And for a house boat with a relatively large hull (inland cargo vessel), it is hard to see that the waterline would vary much within the permitted limits for passenger load + baggage + provisions. My guess, but I may be wrong, is that it would be well within the margin of error allowed for displacement calculations.

Your question is interesting for a number of reasons. For me, because I play with displacement and waterlines for different hull shapes from time to time, albeit at an amateur level. One thing is where to put the masking tape for the anti-fouling, but it is also interesting for determining hull speed, propeller dimensions and motorisation. Lots of lovely theory to study. In the realm of naval architecture, that is, and there are probably many suitable tools for this. Some of which might even help you intersect water surface with hull at different loads and speeds.

Traditionally calculation of waterline and displacement and other factors was done on experience, rule-of-the-thumb, slide-rule and tables. Amazingly, the guesstimates were usually very good, with some notable exceptions like Wasa. But then, world moves on with some impressive estimations done by clever engineers and computers, such as Oasis_of_the_Seas passing under the Great Belt bridge in shallow waters at high speed (squat effect) with marginal clearance. Not much room for calculation errors...

But the real questions you ask are different, assuming I have not misunderstood again.
1) Should SH3D calculate automatic cutout for 'staircase' type models?
2) And furthermore, should SH3D calculate the cutout to the perimeter at the exact level where the model intersects with a floor/ground?

1) Possible auto staircase cutout was mentioned in connection with the release of SH3D 4.2, thread 4444. Even if this could possibly be useful in some contexts, non-rectangular staircases and swimming-pools, the reason I asked was not because the feature would be important to me. The question was more about whether I should bother to add SVG for L-shaped staircases. And as Puybaret mentioned, the actual cutout for a staircase is often different from the outer perimeter of the total staircase.
2) A cutout that also considers perimeter at a certain height, I think is a new suggestion. In your case, I can see it might be useful. But then, that is probably the only case I can think of. And how would this work with a staircase?
.. in my opinion, this is only a workaround, and sorry, I'm a perfectionist, and workarounds are only temporary solutions and for me not aceptable.
So, this is where I disagree. I do not see manually adding SVG for advanced models as a workaround. Quite the contrary. For models with complicated shapes, it will be better if SH3D does not make assumptions about how to cut / intersect with other surfaces. Letting the model maker (or the user) is - I think - much more professional, or perfectionist if you like.

But as you may have understood from the stuff above, I think your house-boat project is really interesting and I hope you will keep posting images and solutions. I hope your dream of travelling the canals of Europe comes true.

ok
[Jul 9, 2018 1:43:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

At the end we're talking about the same!
I do not think, sh3d should calculate the displacement for different loads, this is my job and with a CAD this is an easy job. But I believe sh3d should draw the exact waterline at a defined draft.
You're right it could be a solution to edit home.xml, but in my opinion, intuitive-to-use software like sh3d has not much of end-users who are willing to do so.
If this is the only possible solution, I can design the complete boat in FreeCAD and I can save the effort of switching from CAD to sh3d. Because the easy intuitive way how I can use sh3d was the reason to switch between CAD and sh3d.
BUT, if this adaption is too much work, to complicated or even impossible, I can accept the decision.
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 9, 2018 2:23:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

But for a house boat, I think there sort of is an answer to your challenge as different displacements are standardised.

Btw, the standard displacements are a little bit different for a houseboat navigating the european waterways... on one way easier... on an other way much more complicated...
The only thing that counts is: as less as possible into the water (minimal draft) and, what makes it complicated, as less as possible out of the water (clearance under the low bridges).
And this is the only reason why the waterline could change also for a houseboat - there are ballast tanks - full for passing a low bridge (e. g. capestang), and empty if the canal is very shallow (e. g. nivernais)
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 9, 2018 10:29:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

.. in my opinion, this is only a workaround, and sorry, I'm a perfectionist, and workarounds are only temporary solutions and for me not acceptable.
So, this is where I disagree. I do not see manually adding SVG for advanced models as a workaround. Quite the contrary. For models with complicated shapes, it will be better if SH3D does not make assumptions about how to cut / intersect with other surfaces. Letting the model maker (or the user) is - I think - much more professional, or perfectionist if you like.

After a long night of studying my possibilities with sh3d, FreeCAD and Inkscape I could not resist to give your solution a try, and now I have to say yes, you are right, this is a solution. It's absolutely not as much effort as I thought it is, but it's even not the simple solution sh3d should offer for most of the end-users.
Group Cutout
But as you can see in the picture, the groups still cut big holes. Is there a possibility to define groups do not cut anything?

BTW, the staircaseCutOutShape-entry for the hull is exact 66662 rows long...
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 10, 2018 2:58:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

Unfortunately, I was happy too early. The groups are a huge problem and I need them because with so many objects I lose track without the groups. But even if I have no groups, still dozens of objects cut out a corner where they should not. And to edit the staircasecutoutshape for all these objects can not be a solution, because every time I change the interior design of the houseboat I would have to adjust the cutouts again.
I am now trying to find a solution with a framework. This is basically a 1000x1000 meter square, which has the cutout for the hull in the middle. But unfortunately I have problems here too, this time with the texture. As I can see, a length of the texture is stretched to the length of the object. Can I change that, so that the texture is lined up in all directions next to each other, as if it is on the ground?
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 12, 2018 12:53:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

It seems, this frame-thing will also not end in a solution for my problem. I think at the moment there are too many limitations in sh3d for solving my problem. I have to look around for another possibility to render my boats...
Thank you for your help and I will certainly try again with sh3d in the future ...
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 15, 2018 2:18:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Puybaret
Expert
Member's Avatar

France
Joined: Nov 7, 2005
Post Count: 6619
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

Holes in the ground around objects belonging to underground levels ensure that these objets are still visible even if they are not in underground rooms. Otherwise, what would be the point to add objects that remain invisible? By default, the hole is a bounding box for performance reasons and not the exact surrounding shape of the object that digs the ground (computing this shape can be a time-consuming task), and you can override this hole by defining a staircase cut out shape.
If you want to hide these objects, you could add a thin box that covers the hole. If you define some staircase cut out shapes for each underground object, you could also draw a room at ground level even if these objects belong to a group, because the algorithm that computes the holes in rooms takes into account the individual cut out shapes of each object within a group.

I'll change the program in the coming version to ensure that the behavior of groups that digs the ground is more consistant with how groups cut out rooms. Thus, the holes in the ground will be computed for each object, whether it's in a group or not.
----------------------------------------
Emmanuel Puybaret, Sweet Home 3D developer
[Jul 15, 2018 4:10:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest    http://www.eteks.com [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

Holes in the ground around objects belonging to underground levels ensure that these objets are still visible even if they are not in underground rooms. Otherwise, what would be the point to add objects that remain invisible? By default, the hole is a bounding box for performance reasons and not the exact surrounding shape of the object that digs the ground (computing this shape can be a time-consuming task), and you can override this hole by defining a staircase cut out shape.
If you want to hide these objects, you could add a thin box that covers the hole. If you define some staircase cut out shapes for each underground object, you could also draw a room at ground level even if these objects belong to a group, because the algorithm that computes the holes in rooms takes into account the individual cut out shapes of each object within a group.

This is what I learnd about sh3d in the last few weeks. The solution with the staircase cutout is not practicable for me: my project contains over 550 objects and if I have to edit the cutout for about 10% of them this is a absolutely too-much-time-consuming-job because I perhaps have to redo many cutouts every time I change the design of the Boat.

I'll change the program in the coming version to ensure that the behavior of groups that digs the ground is more consistant with how groups cut out rooms. Thus, the holes in the ground will be computed for each object, whether it's in a group or not.

This is a really cool announcement, because the most annoying holes are the ones from the groups. And if they no longer cut unnecessary holes my renderings will look much better!
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 15, 2018 4:43:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
UbuntuBirdy
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Switzerland
Joined: Aug 31, 2017
Post Count: 240
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: Holes in the ground

After a long try and error game, I probably found a solution: because the staircase cutout cuts the floor from the next level too, I have to define a cutout of 0 for the hull. I then create a simple box on the same level as the hull and add the svg path to this box. The box is not as hight as the the next level so it does not cut its floor.
For simple hulls I can create the svg path without any help, but for complexe hulls I still run into problems. I can create a svg path out of the CAD file of the hull, but it looks like this:
m 1172.9113,107.20674 c -46.6005,46.75386 -104.4355,86.01881 -167.9345,112.21023 -63.42076,26.38049 -132.08077,39.51148 -198.09224,39.40299 H 692.77607 -592.79963 c -69.91766,0.0369 -145.45105,-5.51316 -218.64342,-18.16499 -73.14649,-12.54482 -143.4291,-32.29125 -201.36875,-57.6116 -58.1327,-25.23622 -103.4683,-55.84858 -132.2698,-87.708338 -29.0472,-31.879733 -41.7895,-64.779129 -41.7049,-95.23252904 v -0.20500592 c -0.085,-30.45340004 12.6577,-63.35279604 41.7049,-95.23252904 28.8015,-31.859758 74.1371,-62.472118 132.2698,-87.708338 57.93965,-25.32035 128.22226,-45.06678 201.36875,-57.6116 73.19237,-12.65183 148.72576,-18.20184 218.64342,-18.16499 h 1285.5757 114.10849 c 66.01147,-0.10849 134.67148,13.0225 198.09224,39.40299 63.499,26.19142 121.334,65.45637 167.9345,112.21023 L 1280.118,0 Z

How do I get from the milimeters to the 1 to 1 square for SH3D?
----------------------------------------
Pascal

SH3D 6.1.2 / Ubuntu 18.04 (Mainline-Kernel) / Radeon RX580 / Ryzen 7 1800x
[Jul 20, 2018 7:58:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://binnenflotte.telame.ch [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Posts: 32   Pages: 4   [ Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 | Next Page ]
[ Jump to Last Post ]
Show Printable Version of Thread  Post new Thread

    Get Sweet Home 3D at SourceForge.net. Fast, secure and Free Open Source software downloads
   
© Copyright 2006-2019 eTeks - All rights reserved