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Ceciliabr
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Re: Tin Can Alley

Also put your bottle through EP simplification procedure (removing normals, adding smoothing), but for some reason that did not work as nicely as expected


In art school I learned that Hi-Res is the key word – both when it comes to sowing and graphics.
They used to call me "the lazy seamstress", since I often used long threads and too much space between my stitches when I was impatient and in a hurry – which was more or less my normal state.
Eventually I gave up fashion-design, and concentrated on photo: "A snapshot is done the minute it's taken", I wrongly assumed.

When you travel on economy, you pay less – and you get less. You are compressed and squeezed into a tiny seat, often in an uncomfortable proximity to people not particularly concerned about their personal hygiene, and there is no room for elbows or legs – a bit like when you compress jpegs; you loose more than you think.

Is it likely that a reflective surface can reflect it's surroundings at a higher quality than the reflective surface itself?

Puybaret asked for a test where the optical density of the water was set to 1.333. He was linking to the same MTL material format-file that I was linking to, which is a sort of a Bible for handling your mtl-files.
Here is the result:



Here is a screenshot:


The Perrier-bottle is full. The other bottles are 2/3 empty.

An interesting phenomena occurs of the bottle on the left, where you can see that the image reflected through the liquid is mirrored – a phenomenon that does not occur with the Perrier-bottle, although the density of the water is the same.

!The reason I use a screenshot instead of a Q1-rendering, is that after the hither/yon settings were reprogrammed some versions ago, the Q1 and Q2 options are no longer as usable as they once were...)



The curving is the crux:
A plane (like f.i. eTeks mirror @ 8kb) can be small, but a curved object weighing 21kb cannot possibly hold the same reflective qualities as a curved object weighing 6240kb.
Look at this:

9 kb vs 56 kb. Already at 6 times better resolution, the quality of the roundness is vastly increased.

I really should be doing more homework.

Me too!
But right now I'm not overly motivated: We opened the window – and in flew Enza!

Thanks for your mail.

Cec.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Ceciliabr at Feb 2, 2018, 1:05:14 PM]
[Feb 2, 2018, 12:53:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Mike53
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Re: Tin Can Alley

Great work Cec and Ok on the glass material, i have no idea what all the chat was about, but lovely renderings and ty for sharing them in the forum.
Mike
[Feb 4, 2018, 1:47:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
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Re: Tin Can Alley

@Mike53: ..what all the chat was about, but lovely renderings...
Trying to figure that out too, I think the chat is about an economy class type, trying to convince Cec to get a discount on her private jet, the drinks you get, and what life looks like through a Perrier bottle... smile
In art school I learned that Hi-Res is the key word ...
...When you travel on economy, you pay less – and you get less. ... like when you compress jpegs; you loose more than you think.
Is it likely that a reflective surface can reflect it's surroundings at a higher quality than the reflective surface itself?
Ah, yes, paying attention to what teach us in school can sometimes be a good idea. As for quality vs price, you usually find me in economy class trading potential discomforts for a luxury meal at the destination. No doubt, your journey and renderings are stunning and a joy to see, but at a price I hesitate to pay when rendering is secondary.

But still, there is no reason not aiming for the highest quality when cost is low. Such as the above .svg AnyLabel can_label_txt.svg . A design/text template: edit to any design at perfect quality regardless of scale/resolution, then convert to .png or .jpg (depending on the image) at any compression or resolution. Full control over quality vs. cost.
test where the optical density of the water was set to 1.333... a Bible for handling your mtl-files.
Very beautiful and interesting renderings. I still try to get my head around how best to combine the settings, thanks for the homework. Had a quick look and I am looking forward to being confused at a higher level.

The curving is the crux:
A plane (like f.i. eTeks mirror @ 8kb) can be small, but a curved object weighing 21kb cannot possibly hold the same reflective qualities as a curved object weighing 6240kb.
True, true. And in a world where circles are represented by polygons the quality trade-off is exactly the point.

1)Somewhere I read an article about using (Bézier) curves in .obj files. Annoyingly I cannot find it again, to check whether it is valid generally. Does anyone know?

2) The aim of the oversimplified bottle in a world of polygon 'circles', was not aiming for the perfect, but to test the EP simplification on curved objects using .obj smoothing / letting SH3D recalculate the normals. Testing cans/and bottles from pentagons to 24 sided polygons, I was pleasantly surprised that a smoothed octagon actually resembled a bottle. This I had not expected. Of course, an octagon is Economy class, but working your way up, my impression is that you will reach a level where you no longer can see a difference.

To me there is a lesson in this: how best to make curved surface models. To revisit the bottle:
  • start with high resolution: a detailed polygon/curve, e.g. a 36 segment 'circle',
  • create the bottle shape, still in high quality,
    (then duplicate and scale/edit bottle shape to create inside, content, label etc, all grouped separately for easy later cleanup),
  • reduce the vertices down to acceptable level (e.g. with Blender's Limited dissolve setting max angle to around around 3° for a Perrier bottle),
  • simplify the .obj file further removing normals and add smoothing.

Here the outside of the bottle in three versions. Very simple octagon vs the model Cec used. The middle one is a possible compromise with the latter using Blender to reduce surfaces, and adding smoothing in the .obj file.

Or a Crémant bottle (bottle_cremant.zip, there is a limit to how much Perrier I can drink): 18 segment 'circles' and simplified (should have added a couple more polygons vertically). Everything is smoothened, except the capsule. Not good enough for Cec' HQ renderings, but somewhere between 40 and 18 segment 'circles', there may be a compromise using smoothing where I doubt it is possible to tell the difference. Even at Cec' level. I think.


low_poly_cremant.sh3d

Of course, there are some other elements here. For the cylinder, viewed from Cec' angle, you will need lots of 'circle' segments anyway. And yes, even if the tiny models do render a lot quicker, glass and optical density and all the other cool settings, will in themselves suck up a lot of rendering time.

With all my previous mistakes in mind, I may just make a model a Rizenhoff beer glass. A not-so-subtle gift, emphasis being glass.

... and in flew Enza
And I suppose you cannot take a glass of my favourite cure... Poor you. Hope for quick recovery.

ok
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bdfd
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smile Re: Tin Can Alley

All these bottles made me thirsty, did not you? laughing



Direction abar with few friends for a little fresh beer !

wink
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[Feb 5, 2018, 6:13:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
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Re: Tin Can Alley

Well, it is pretty hard to find the right balance. A quick test with a beer glass and I had to give up on Hi-Res. Just took too much time. Not the creation, but the rendering tests were killing. Beter leave Hi-Res rendering to Cec and her models. So I go with the simple ones. Even if the beer glasses are a bit beyond the initial intention of using tiny models. Cec is such a bad influence... Feel free to test and alter models, much can be done. The shortcomings should be pretty visible in this test rendering. The beer was not really intended to be a light Weizenbier, but the bubble texture can easily be altered. As can the label, head and everything else.

low_poly_bglass.sh3d
glass_beer_simple.zip

glass_beer_simple_blend.zip

[Feb 5, 2018, 10:57:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
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Re: Tin Can Alley

bar with few friends
Very nice rendering, what are the settings (size/.mtl stuff) for the tankard, bottles and glasses especially for the tankard, that looks very good? ok
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bdfd
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Re: Tin Can Alley

bar with few friends
Very nice rendering, what are the settings (size/.mtl stuff) for the tankard, bottles and glasses especially for the tankard, that looks very good? ok
Thank you okh.

Here is the link for the zipped file : HERE (mtl, obj, texture) @bdfd wink

FYI : I used Enkonyito's 'PVR 1.4 beta2' for this rendering.

Enjoy !

smile
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[Feb 6, 2018, 6:32:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ceciliabr
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Re: Tin Can Alley

..what all the chat was about, but lovely renderings…

Don't mind the gobbledegook, just look at the pictures wink

@okh
First I have to say this: I’m both impressed, surprised and baffled, seeing how a 6240kb model can be shrunk by 99.5% and still contain so much of the original information.

And yes, even if the tiny models do render a lot quicker, glass and optical density and all the other cool settings, will in themselves suck up a lot of rendering time.

So we can assume that the main purpose of reducing the size of a model from 6.240kb to 36kb, is to improve the overall performance of SH3D.
How much will we gain, compared to what we loose?
I really didn’t notice any difference in handling the 36kb Perrier bottle vs handling the 6.240kb Perrier bottle. In fact SH3D still performed
quite smoothly after adding several other high-res models, and as the project finally reached 63.4 MB, SH3D still performed as well as expected
on a tiny MacBook Air. No lagging, no bouncy movements and no graphic hiccups when changing the aspect of the preview window.
The tiny Perrier bottle (36kb) is on the left.
There's really a surprisingly small difference in the visual appearance between the big and the small bottle – at least there's not a 99.5 % difference.


The difference becomes a bit more visible when I zoom in.
I no longer feel any need to point out that the tiny bottle is on the left.


So let's look at the render time:
Using two big Perrier bottles almost doubles the time it takes to render, compared to using two of the tiny bottles.


The visible difference really becomes noticable when I do some close-ups, and the rendering time increases.

A nine-minute-difference when rendering on a three-year-old MacBook Air.
On other computers, the difference will most likely be less than nine minutes.
Of course nine minutes can feel lkke a long time, especially when waiting for something. But think of all the things you can do within nine minutes: You can make a yourself a nice
cup of tea in nine minutes, or a cup of hot chocolate – and you can send a nice sms to your girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, husband, lover, mistress… and you can call your mother.

As for quality vs price, you usually find me in economy class trading potential discomforts for a luxury meal at the destination.
Something tells me you have never been pregnant in seat 23B, squeezed between two fat-bottomed American heavyweights for six hours. wink

Let me try another angle
I sometimes travel to Frankfurt with a small group of business men. They are middle aged men, carrying only their small leather cases, and occasionally an additional plastic bag with gifts or personal paraphernalia picked up at the tax-free store. They prefer to travel light.
They smile, and exchange glances and comments as they are looking at me struggling with lifting my suitcase, until one of them politely offers to help me place it in the overhead locker.
Then, the same evening, when I meet them for dinner at the restaurant, they are amazed when they see me: Wow! they say, and I can see them quickly glancing around the room,
to see if anyone is noticing that they have this elegant lady in their midst. Themselves they have maybe shaved for the occasion, but they’re still wearing the same suit as they wore on the flight.
And on the flight back home, they still wear the same suits, and the same glances and smiles are exchanged, and the same comments are mumbled; why are women always travelling with so much luggage?

(…) there may be a compromise using smoothing where I doubt it is possible to tell the difference. Even at Cec' level. I think.

Even at Cec’ level… I wonder. What about close-ups?
Is the goal to find out how much reduction that can be done to a model before it is noticeable?
In that case, I need to define at what level the term “noticeable” becomes significant when viewing a rendered depiction of a 3D object.
I remember from art-school one time we wanted to paint an old wreck of a VW black for use in a short film. The original colour of the car was light green. So we calculated the size of the surface of the car, and then went to the local paint shop to get advice and to buy exactly the amount of paint we needed to paint the wehicle.
We were on a budget ( economy class), and wanted to spend as little as possible.
The man behind the counter was a skilled professional, and could not resist giving us a lesson about the difference between painting a surface and just applying colour to it.
Being amateurs, he told us, we just might make the car look black, if seen from a distance, but if we wanted close-ups, we had better get a professional to do the job.
Well, we didn’t listen to him – and the result was a complete catastrophe.
In the merciless combination of close-ups and heavy lights, the qualities of an object ( as well as the lack thereof ), become shockingly evident.

I have looked at the files you sent me, and made some renderings that I was not completely happy with.
So in my feverish state of ineffectiveness, I set forth to construct a new wine bottle – one of my favourite wines – the Tignanello from Antinori.
I wanted to make a model that would look good on close-ups. So it ended up weighing 9.843 kb.
Here is a comparison, where I have placed it alongside one of your size-reduced wine bottles, and I have also upgraded the label (only) of one of your beer cans – to match “my level”.

This is a downscaled image.
An unscaled rendering of this image can be seen here: 2352x1440 and a 4K rendering can be seen here: (3840 × 1391- 5.1Mb, png-format.)
(These images are rendered on a MacPro 12 core with 24 threads and 96GB memory.)

Rendering time differences:


My Tignanello-bottle is far from perfect yet. There are still work to be done, especially the cap and the wine inside the bottle needs more work,
and I need to make a new placeholder for the curved label… and I also need to study the mtl-Bible some more, in order to get the right balance between reflection and refraction.
But feel free to download it and use it – improve it – reduce it ... or whatever… or just expel it to the rubbish-bin.

And I suppose you cannot take a glass of my favourite cure... Poor you. Hope for quick recovery.
Well, I can find pleasure in drinking a nice cup of hot chocolate, or a glass of hot tea with lots of lime and sugar.
The temperature is rising... outdoors, and my fever has finally lost it’s grip.
So I can’t really blame the fever for chattering away like I’m in a bar. Maybe I'm suffering from some post-flu-syndrom – something that gives me an unstoppable urge to produce harangues of digressive babble...


@bdfd
Nice rendering, and your Heineken-bottle is especially realistic and very well done! Made it yourself? Care to share it?


Cec
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Ceciliabr at Feb 7, 2018, 12:27:26 AM]
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okh
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Re: Tin Can Alley

..main purpose of reducing the size of a model from 6.240kb to 36kb, is to improve the overall performance of SH3D. How much will we gain, compared to what we loose?
Well, it is for me, anyway. Thanks for these tests. Seems my theories on size and rendering times were not too far off. Long distance: little difference: close-up, longer renders vs quality loss. So for renders with bottles at a distance, it really is quite amazing how small models can be used. The octagon Perrier still baffles me, proves how useful smoothing in the .obj file can be.

However, even if there may not be as much to save on rendering as expected, the overall performance of SH3D is greatly improved by using smaller models. At least on a slow computer. And reduced file size is an advantage for online presentations.
a model that would look good on close-ups. So it ended up weighing 9.843 kb. ..feel free to download it and use it - improve it - reduce it ...
It looks good and renders beautifully. Even so, being a silly man with a dash of vanity, how could I possibly resist a challenge? Goal, shrink with little or no loss in quality.

The elephant in the file is the .png label, an optimizer shrinks it to 11% without quality loss (but it would compress also in .sh3d, so no big save in terms of compressed .sh3d file size). But as the original at some point was a .jpg, the smudges can be removed by a quick colour manipulation/posterization: 1,4%of the orignial.
8406919 100% original_Tignanello-2012_Stolichnaya_bottle6_3.png
967149 11,5% lossless_optimize_Tignanello-2012_Stolichnaya_bottle6_3.png
118037 1,4% colour_reduced_Tignanello-2012_Stolichnaya_bottle6_3.png

Label is not the key issue here, though. As for the model, tried a tiny cleanup, removed some unnecessary surfaces and elements, but kept the general number of visible surfaces. Some weight saved. Then after a touch more editing and using the EP simplification smoothing, size comes down quite a bit more. The number of visible surfaces are are approximately the same. Now, if you were to compromise also on the number of surfaces (e.g. Blender Limited dissolve), reduction can be significant. Tried with outside of the bottle just to visualise.

The size reductions shown in the model size column in tig_btl_comparison.sh3d. The entire model is down quite a bit, even without counting the label, just with the smoothing. Just the bottle outside reduced indicates the potential. Frankly, I struggle to see the quality difference. Or if anything, it seems that as long as we are working with polygons for circles, there will always be imperfections. So increasing segments may not even help, but then I work at a lower rendering level.
..surprisingly small difference in the visual appearance between the big and the small bottle – at least there's not a 99.5 % difference
Yes, that is what amazes me as well. Your renderings and tests are very valuable in analyzing the model making process. Where to go for high detail, and where it makes very little difference. Thanks to your input, I am really learning a lot about strategy when making models. Materials will still be a hit and miss, but I think I am beginning to understand which compromises to make for different models.
..pregnant in seat 23B...
Nope, not tried that, for obvious reasons, but that would most certainly qualify for an upgrade. Luggage issue familiar, except that on holiday my suitcase magically fills with women's items that I did not put there. So much for travelling light.

Files in the SourceForge #461, including a .zip with the .blend files and the .pngs. For models, either use the zipped .obj files, or pick from the .sh3d test file:
tig_btl_comparison.sh3d

ok
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bdfd
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Re: Tin Can Alley

...
An unscaled rendering of this image can be seen here: 2352x1440 and a 4K rendering can be seen here: (3840 × 1391- 5.1Mb, png-format.)
(These images are rendered on a MacPro 12 core with 24 threads and 96GB memory.)
Nice powerly machine for your great pictures !

...
@bdfd
Nice rendering, and your Heineken-bottle is especially realistic and very well done! Made it yourself? Care to share it?]
Cec
TY cec, nice compliment coming from you. love struck

No, I updated it only and found on a celeb site often spoken here...
=> improvements can be made on the texture.

You can download it HERE
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Evil progresses when good people do nothing!
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